Oppression of Women

menschtx wrote:

"With so much value being put upon the Mormon man that the women need to submit to the man and his teaching, leadership and as we see explotation of the women, and now even children. Some being pregnate at the age of 13, as reported in the Star-Telegram on 4/19/2008 -A girl as young as 13 may have given birth at a polygamous sect's compound, a child welfare worker testified Thursday night at a marathon custody hearing for 416 children removed from the ranch. The idiology of Mormon teaching which these people are believing is the basis of the Mormon doctrine as aspoused by the prophet Joseph Smith in the order of producing more bodies for the spiritual children exisiting on the planet Kolob. Hey every body has to have some where to go."

Rhino's response:

Nobody else has chimed in so I thought it would be helpful to shed some light on the references that you have made to Mormon doctrine concerning women.

You quoted Doctrine & Covenants 25:14,15 - 14 and implied that our doctrine is oppressive to women. I submit that the Mormon doctrine is anything but oppressive to women. There are polygamists (who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) whose behaviour is very oppressive to women, but these are not members of the LDS church, and cannot be members of the LDS church because they are practicing polygamy.

To say that the scriptures in Doctrine & Covenants is oppressive toward women would imply that the writings of Paul the Apostle to the Ephesians is also oppressive toward women:

22 aWives, bsubmit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the ahusband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the bhead of the cchurch: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 aHusbands, blove your cwives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might asanctify and bcleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The truth is that neither the D&C nor the Bible is oppressive toward women. What is oppressive toward women is the perverted men who take 13 year old girls as spiritual wives by cumpulsory means and against the will of God.

The prophet Jacob in the Book of Mormon wrote (Jacob 2:23-32)

"23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing awhoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and aSolomon truly had many bwives and concubines, which thing was cabominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And bwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up aseed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and aabominations of their bhusbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit awhoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our afather, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done."

God condemns the actions of the polygamists at YFZ ranch in Texas just as he condemned it during the times of Jacob in the Book of Mormon and King David and King Soloman."

If you would like to learn more details about the LDS doctrine concerning polygamy see my post on Polygamy or go to http://www.lds.org/.

Are Mormon's Christian?

menschtx wrote at http://hubpages.com/hub/Mormon-vs-Christian-Beliefs---A-Comparison_1:

Mormon vs Christian Beliefs - A Comparison, what is the difference?

The question is what is the difference between Mormonism and Christianity. We must first look to the question of who is Jesus?

First we will take a look at the Mormon version. Bruce McConkie, a Mormon Apostle, teaches in his book, Mormon Doctrine, "Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." And again this view. Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth President and Prophet of the Mormon Church claimed, "Christ not begotten of Holy Ghost...He was not born without the aid of Man and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18). 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:18) Oops!"

Rhino's Response:

"The Godhead consists of three distinct personages who are one in unity and purpose. The members of the Godhead are Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. All human beings consist of two fundamental parts, the body and the spirit, and these two parts together comprise the soul. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and spirit. The Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh, he is only a personage of spirit. The spirits of all human beings were created by God the Father before the earth was created. Before the world was created, God the Father, created the spirit of Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father is the father of his spirit and the father of our spirits. Under the direction of God the Father, Jesus Christ created the earth and Adam and Eve. He put their spirits into their bodies of flesh and they became living souls. When we were born, our spirit entered into our body and we became a living soul. When we die, our spirit leaves our body and our body is buried in the earth until the resurrection, when our body and our spirit will be reunited.

The prophet Alma, described the conception of Jesus Christ in Alma 7:10 of the Book of Mormon "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."

Alma, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, and Matthew actually do not contradict each other concerning the birth of Jesus Christ. No man or woman can be in the presence of God unless he is "quickened by the Spirit" (See various Bible references and the Doctrine & Covenants 67:11-12) This means that in order to endure the presence of God, any man or woman would need to be sanctified and purified by the Holy Ghost, therefore the Holy Ghost is the agent or the "power" by which Mary was able to endure the presence of God the Father who has characteristics of a man because he has a body and a spirit, so that she could conceive the only begotten Son of God. In other words. Since God the Father has a body of flesh and spirit, and Mary has a body of flesh and spirit, they were able to conceive the one and only Son of God, even Jesus Christ.

These are the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as the Mormons. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

Fishers of Men

Last night I had the opportunity to speak at a mission prep fireside for the Las Vegas South Stake and it was an awesome experience. Twelve years ago , I gave my last sacrament meeting talk in the Rainbow Ward of the Las Vegas Lakes Stake before leaving on my mission to the Dominican Republic. The theme of that talk was based on the scripture Matthew 4:19 and I focused on being"fishers of men".

This time the theme of the fireside was the same scripture, Matthew 4:19, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men", but the focus was very different: "Follow me". What I did not quite realize 12 years ago, was that we can study all the techniques for sharing the Gospel, and we can analyze what it means to be a good missionary, but the invitation is simple. Follow Jesus Christ, and he will make you a fisher of men.

Follow the example of Jesus Christ, seek to develp his attributes, through the mercy of his atoning sacrifice, and you will naturally become a fisher of men. You will see opportunities to share the Gospel with your family, friends, and neighbors and they will want to follow Jesus Christ because they will see the goodness that is in you.

Last night, the Holy Ghost testified to me that the best way to share the Gospel is to develop Christlike attributes. I am grateful for that reminder and that testimony.

Joseph Smith - Treasure Hunter?

Was Joseph Smith a treasure hunter? Let's see what the editors of Wikipedia have to say:

"About 1825, Smith was approached by a man named Josiah Stowell, from South Bainbridge, New York, who had been searching for a lost Spanish mine near Harmony Township, Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania. He had traveled to Manchester because of Smith's reputation as "possessing certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye", and Stowell wanted to employ his services. Stowell was working with a William Hale, also from Harmony, who reportedly had learned from a crystal gazer named Odle of treasures supposedly concealed in a hill near Hale's home.

"Smith agreed to take the job of assisting Stowell and Hale, and he and his father worked with the Stowell-Hale team for approximately one month, attempting, according to their contract, to locate "a valuable mine of either Gold or Silver and also...coined money and bars or ingots of Gold or Silver". Smith boarded with an Isaac Hale (a relative of William Hale), and fell in love with Isaac Hale's daughter Emma, a schoolteacher he would later marry in 1827. Isaac Hale, however, disapproved of their relationship and of Smith in general. According to an unsupported account by Hale, Smith attempted to locate the mine by burying his face in a hat containing the seer stone; however, as the treasure hunters got close to their objective, Smith said that an enchantment became so strong that Smith could no longer see it. The failed project disbanded on November 17, 1825; however, Smith continued to work for Stowell on other matters until 1826.
Court records from Bainbridge, New York, show that Smith, identified as "The Glass Looker," was before the court on March 20, 1826, on a warrant for an unspecified misdemeanor charge, and that the judge issued a mittimus for Smith to be held, either during or after the proceedings. Although Smith's associate Oliver Cowdery (who had not met Smith as of 1826) later stated that Smith was "honorably acquitted", the result of the proceeding is unclear, with some eye-witnesses (including the court reporter) claiming he was found guilty, others claiming he was "condemned" but "designedly allowed to escape," and yet others claiming he was "discharged" for lack of evidence.

"By November 1826, Josiah Stowell could no longer afford to continue searching for buried treasure; Smith traveled to Colesville, New York, for a few months to work for Joseph Knight, Sr., one of Stowell's friends. There are reports that Smith directed further excavations on Knight's property and at other locations around Colesville. Smith later commented on his working as a treasure hunter: "'Was not Joseph Smith a money digger?' Yes, but it was never a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it." Source: Wikipedia

Joseph Smith himself admitted to working as a treasure hunter in his history published in the Pearl of Great Price:

"As my father’s worldly circumstances were very limited, we were under the necessity of laboring with our hands, hiring out by day’s work and otherwise, as we could get opportunity. Sometimes we were at home, and sometimes abroad, and by continuous labor were enabled to get a comfortable maintenance.

"In the year 1823 my father’s family met with a great affliction by the death of my eldest brother, Alvin. In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger."

It appears the answer to this accusation is yes - Joseph Smith was a treasure hunter. Does that mean that he was not a prophet? No.

Joseph Smith - Forger?

NormaBates wrote: "Joseph Smith Jr, the forger, treasure-hunter, magician, polygamist and self-styled priest-king of the American continent, invented an American version of Europe's ethnically-founded idolatry. Smith concocted a tale in which Americans actually were the Chosen People, and America was the Promised Land of the ancient Hebrews and Jesus Christ. In short, Smith took to the extremes of fantasy and forgery and impulse towards national self-worship that always lurks somewhere in American Christianity."

Rhino's response: Let's take a deeper look at some of these labels put on Joseph Smith in the next few posts:

Joseph Smith - Forger? "The Book of Mormon was written by ancient prophets, just as the Bible was written by prophets and apostles of Christ. The writing was done by the spirit of revelation and prophecy. Many authors had contributed directly or were quoted in the final abridgment of ancient records compiled by the prophet, historian, and military leader Mormon near 400 A.D. As a result, there are a variety of distinct literary styles in the Book of Mormon, ranging from classical Hebrew poetical components in the writings of Nephi, Benjamin (quoted by his son in the Book of Mosiah), and Alma (who provides us with one of the most majestic examples ever of the ancient Semitic poetical form, chiasmus, in Alma 36), to the terse, direct prose of reluctant military men such as Mormon and Moroni.

"Joseph Smith, a young farm boy in backwoods New York, translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates in a brief time, about 65 man-days maximum, an average of over 8 single-spaced pages per day. The translation was done through the gift and power of God. Was this monumental task an act of forgery? That's what many assume - but even a brief but honest examination of the text leads to one conclusion: the forgery hypothesis cannot explain the Book of Mormon." Source: http://www.jefflindsay.com

I echo Moroni's challenge, if anybody wants to know whether the Book of Mormon is true, I encourage you to read the book, that you would remember how merciful the Lord has been unto the children of men, and ponder it in your heart. And when you receive these things, I would invite you to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if you ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.

Polygamy

The Church's website addresses the history and doctrine of polygamy very clearly and openly:

"The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church.

"The Bible indicates that Abraham, Jacob, and others of the Lord’s servants had multiple wives (see Genesis 16:1–3; 29:23–30; 30:4, 9; Judges 8:30; 1 Samuel 1:1–2). Joseph Smith asked God why He had permitted this practice and was told that God had commanded it for specific purposes. One reason given by the Lord for plural marriage is mentioned in the Book of Mormon: “If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall [have only one wife]” (Jacob 2:30; see also v. 27).

"After God revealed the doctrine of plural marriage to Joseph Smith in 1831 and commanded him to live it, the Prophet, over a period of years, cautiously taught the doctrine to some close associates. Eventually, he and a small number of Church leaders entered into plural marriages in the early years of the Church. Those who practiced plural marriage at that time, both male and female, experienced a significant trial of their faith. The practice was so foreign to them that they needed and received personal inspiration from God to help them obey the commandment.
When the Saints moved west under the direction of Brigham Young, more Latter-day Saints entered into plural marriages.

"Influenced by rumors and exaggerated reports, the United States Congress, beginning in 1862, enacted a series of laws against polygamy that became increasingly harsh. By the 1880s many Latter-day Saint men were imprisoned or went into hiding.

"In 1889 in the face of increasing hardships and the threat of government confiscation of Church property, including temples, Wilford Woodruff, President of the Church at the time, prayed for guidance. He was inspired to issue a document that officially ended the sanction of plural marriage by the Church. The document, called the Manifesto, was accepted by Church members in a general conference held in October 1890 and is published in the Doctrine and Covenants as Official Declaration 1 (see also “Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto” following Official Declaration 1).

"Just as the practice of plural marriage among the Latter-day Saints began gradually, the ending of the practice after the Manifesto was also gradual. Some plural marriages were performed after the Manifesto, particularly in Mexico and Canada. In 1904, President Joseph F. Smith called for a vote from the Church membership that all post-Manifesto plural marriages be prohibited worldwide.

"More recently, President Gordon B. Hinckley has reiterated that plural marriage is “against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows [the practice of a man having more than one wife], the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage” (“What Are People Asking about Us?” Ensign, Nov. 1998, 72).

"Groups who teach polygamy today are not part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Google

Rhino wrote:

"Anybody who questions whether Mormons are Christian should really read the Book of Mormon or at least visit the official website of the Church: http://jesuschrist.lds.org"

NormaBates wrote:

"No, Rhino, honey. Anybody interested in the origins and history of Mormon won't find them in the Book of Mormon or at the Church of Mormon's official site.

"Anybody SERIOUSLY interested in Mormon's origins and the lives (and lies) of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young can simply Google "origin of mormon" or Google "joseph smith" or "brigham young" or "kolub" and read any of hundreds of factual and historic citations about this absurdist religion....Mormon is nuttier than a fruitcake; as bigoted and sexist and hateful and homophobic as Baptists; fully on a par with Scientology in its psychotic theology and cosmology. Kolub, anybody? Golden Tablets in upstate New York, anybody? "Seer stones," anybody? Xenu, anybody? Thetans, honeychile? All ages can testifie enough howe profitable that fable of Christe hath ben to us and our companie." Pope Leo X in the 1500s."

Rhino's response:

"Google is not the one true source of knowledge, God is. I agree that Mormons tend to be nutty and homophobic; but bigoted, sexist, and hateful they are not. If Joseph Smith really did find 1,400 year old golden plates in a hillside in Palmyra, New York and translate them, wouldn't you want to read them to see what they say?"

Mormon Money

eLwood wrote:

"Mormons are now the largest single property holders in America, own more food producing lands and operations than any other group....They own more than Saudis and Japanese and the royal robes of the catholic church.Therefore they have more toys and will get into heaven sooner. Sorry but numbers are numbers and that's the way god works now. MoMoney, Mo heaven. Just come up here and ask Armani Ronnie. 2 mega churches to his credit, bullet proof SUVs, two luxurious homes, helicopterto port him from church to church. Take away the numbers and what do you have? Just another Pimp for Bush.

Rhino's response:

"Yes - the Mormon church has a lot of money and a lot of land. All of the Mormons who are in full-fellowship pay 10% of their income to the church and they have done a lot of good things with that money. Check out this website if you want to learn more: http://www.providentliving.org/ None of the "paid-clergy" of the Mormon church are living in luxurious homes, but I am pretty sure their cars are bullet proof.

South Park

NormaBates wrote:

"American popular culture makes a running joke of Smith's 1827 claim to have discovered golden tablets containing the history of an Israelite migration to North America including a cameo appearance by Jesus Christ. Thanks to the animated satire "South Park", Americans know that Smith "translated" golden tablets that no-one else could see by looking at "seer stones" inside his hat. That is the power of mass media; one half-hour cartoon can undo the work of a million missionaries."

Rhino's response:

"The producers of "South Park" missed at least one important fact. Joseph Smith was not the only person who could see the gold plates. There were 11 other people who saw and held the plates. This was the testimony of three of them:

"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

You can find the testimony of the other 8 in the introduction to the Book of Mormon.

Arkansas Blog

This blog was inspired by a conversation that I had with eLwood and NormaBates on the Arkansas Times Blog on August 14, 2008. I realized there are a lot of prejudices and misconceptions about the doctrine and history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) that I might be able to help resolve.